Editor’s note – This text is prepared in response to those readers who have been asking Ethiomedia to publish the text version of the interview Meles Zenawi made in London on April 2 with BBC’s HardTalk host Zeinab Badawi. OK, here we are. Meles Zenawi was at the G-20 Summit without being there: he never addressed the summit. He was there anyway, proudly holding his begging bowl for himself and his fellow corrupt African tyrants.
Journalist Zeinab wonders, among other things, that Zenawi has been in power since 1991, and if he is ready to step aside. Meles says this one is his last. In other words, he wouldn’t ask for five more years at the next 2010 “election.” He says he will submit a resignation request to his party.
Will Meles Zenawi resign after nearly 20 years in power? Are you one of the innocent souls who believe him? Or you are a hard nut to crack like us that Meles would never allow the transfer of power even to another Eritrean, let alone Ethiopian? We have solid evidences to justify our claim that the guy wouldn’t consider resignation even by 2016, the end of the five-year term he is saying he doesn’t seek. But first things first: what do you think are the reasons that convince you Meles would never let Ethiopia go free? Send us your opinions. We will share them with our worldwide audience. Thank you. And now here is the interview:
Zenawi – Well, we are part of the same global system. And the legitimacy of any system is largely determined by how it reaches the weakest elements of that system. And if the globalized system we now have treats the African countries like some extra, then of course the legitimacy of the whole system is in question.
Zenawi – We need resources to tide us over the current challenges. We’ve asked for something like $30 to $50 billion dollars of assistance through the IMF.
Zenawi – Because the financial crisis was transforming into an economic crisis, and has affected our export because commodity prices have collapsed, affected capital flows to Africa, affected the flow of remittances to Africa, and so the result…we face a crisis which was not of our own making.
Zenawi – Yeah. We want the developed nations maintain their pledges, and at the same time give us additional resources of $30 to $50 billion dollars to tide us over the current challenges.
Zenawi – I would understand that. I’d understand that fully. That’s why the proposal we have on the table is that the IMF should be used to create money; it has the capacity to create international money, and sell some of its gold, which means we could raise up to $50 billion without any way affecting the budget of the developed countries.
Zenawi – Well, we’ve been doing more over the past five years. Our economy has been growing at more than 11%, and so, the five years’ performance is quite good. The fact that we’ve inflation, at a time when the globe is facing deflation, seems to suggest that our economy is growing robustly. That is not to say that inflation is a minor problem, but it is a problem of growth.
Zenawi – Well, there are challenges ahead of us. The current economic crisis is not the most benign environment for us. And we have inflationary problems as you indicated. We’ve balance of payment problems related to the current crisis and internal problems. So, as a result of this, there are some clouds on the horizon. But the fact remains that for six years we’ve done very well.
Zenawi – We have about five million people who need food aid. That is significantly less than one fifth of the population. But we’ve safety net programs for more Ethiopians, that safety net program you could consider as social safety net programs you have in such developed countries.
Zenawi – Well, we wouldn’t want to underestimate the problem because it is our people who would die if they didn’t get assistance. So, on balance, we tend to be cautious in terms of the figures. We want to err on the higher side of the figures rather than on the lower side of the figures because it is about lives of people that we are talking. The point is, I think, the estimates this year have been as reliable as the estimates in previous years, and in previous years we have not erred on the side of underestimating the figures.
Zenawi – He did because some of the NGOs told him that. And we agreed we would carry out thorough nutrition survey in the region. That nutrition survey is, I think, going on as we speak. Now…
Zenawi – The thing is some of these NGOs have not been positively inclined towards the government because of the legislation we have in place that they think restricts their activity. But otherwise, there have been no deaths in Kebri Dehar, or children of anybody else. Everybody now recognizes that perhaps the emergency was a bit exaggerated.
Zenawi – It does not undermine the independence of Ethiopian civil society organizations. What it undermines is the funding of civil society organizations in Ethiopia who are involved in political activities from foreign sources. And I believe the practice in all advanced countries is that political activities are funded from local sources.
Zenawi – No. That is not going to be the requirement. They will have to file their financial audits, and on the basis of financial audits of their financing, we will know whether they are sourcing their money from local sources or foreign sources. And mind this is just NGOs involved in political activities. All those NGOs who are involved in economic, social and environmental development activities are not required to source their money locally.
Zenawi – Well, clearly there is injustice in Darfur. And the African Union recognizes that. But there are different methods of addressing injustice. There is the restorative justice of the type we saw in South Africa. And everybody agrees that the apartheid system in South Africa committed crimes against humanity. Nobody I know of had opposed the South African method of restorative justice. And I don’t see any reason why a similar approach could not be followed for Darfur.
Zenawi- [Yes] …and the Sudanese … included measures of internal reconciliation, and some sort of a truth and reconciliation commission of the type we had in South Africa. The thing is the crisis in Darfur is primarily a political crisis. It is not a humanitarian crisis. It is a political crisis. Unless you resolve the political crisis, you cannot resolve a humanitarian crisis.
Zenawi – Well, the African Union is suggesting that the indictment be deferred for a year, so that an already complicated peace process doesn’t get more complicated, so that they get a breathing space to try and resolve the political problem, on the basis of which we could then address issues of justice and humanitarian concern.
Zenawi – No. We are seeking a deferral in the hope that through this deferral, we will resolve the political problem which could then open up new possibilities of addressing issues of injustice.
Zenawi – A number of these countries are thinking in those terms but I will not presume to give suggestions as to how to move forward… because Ethiopia is not a member of the ICC.
Zenawi – Well, there are legal and political issues here. Legally, Ethiopia is not a member of the ICC. There is no Security Council mandate requiring member states of the United Nations to detain him. So, legally, we’ve no obligations to detain him.
Zenawi – We’ll welcome him because the African Union has not accepted this indictment, and we are the headquarters of the African Union. We’ve no legal obligation to detain him, and he is a head of state of a neighboring country, and I don’t know of any developed country which has cut diplomatic ties with the Sudan.
Zenawi – Let’s deal with this issue step by step. As far as the conduct of the Ethiopian army in the Ogaden is concerned, I think we’ve come up with a detailed report, nullifying the accusations of Human Rights Watch on a case, on every count. So I think the performance of our army has been exemplary.
Zenawi- As I said, we’ve proven concretely that these accusations were full of lies. One of the methods we used was to interview people who were supposedly killed by our army, according to Human Rights Watch. So this is full of lies. What Human Rights Watch did was interview sympathizers of the rebel groups in Kenya, and then took this as the last word in the Bible, and then decided that we have, or we must have, committed crimes.
Zenawi – Well, if they want to move freely without security [forces] providing the security, they could end up in Mogadishu as two humanitarian organization workers ended up kidnapped by these terrorists.
Zenawi – We would say the exact opposite is the truth. Our army has managed very difficult counter-insurgency operation in a manner any army in the world, and I mean any army in the world, would be proud of in terms of the human rights record in the Ogaden.
Zenawi – Our problem was not with the Islamists. Our problem was with the terrorists. Not all Islamists are terrorists, as far as we are concerned. Now the specific group of Islamists who are now in power …
Zenawi – Yes. We were very unhappy within then because they declared jihad against us. Now we are happy within because he says he wants to practice his Islam in Somalia. That is his time.
Zenawi – As I said, Human Rights Watch gets its reports from refugee camps sourced by people who have an ax to grind, and we’ve repeatedly proved that most of these are lies.
Zenawi – You see! This is the distortion I was talking about. She was accused of being involved in an activity that was designed to bring about unconstitutional change of government in Ethiopia. That case was proved in an independent court of law observed by, among others, European Union observers. That court made the decision that she was criminally liable, and sentenced her to life. After that, this lady asked for pardon, and we gave her the pardon, and she was released. After she was released, she said she didn’t ask for pardon at all…
Zenawi – Which means she was given pardon under false pretenses. And according to our law, any pardon given under false pretenses has to be nullified immediately.
Zenawi – No. Protesting is not worthy of any sentence. But being involved in an activity which was designed, planned to change a government by unconstitutional means, that is a criminal act. As far as I know, in every country…
Zenawi – Yeah, look; the point is if everytime some person in the opposition claims that he has been harassed, it is assumed that that person must have been harassed, then we are into the business of allegations and counter-allegations, rather than into the business of verifying facts. And I’m suggesting that we should speak on the basis of facts, not allegations and counter allegations.
Zenawi – I don’t consider myself as indispensable at all. And I believe that if any person is indispenable to the wellbeing of any party or any country, then that country or that party doesn’t deserve to live.
